Darnah Mercieca: 0:02

This is Empowered Explant the podcast helping women ditch their breast implants with confidence.

Darnah Mercieca: 0:09

I'm Darnah Mercieca board certified health and wellness coach and explant warrior. Now, all women in our community are survivors survivors of the dangers of breast implants, survivors of breast implant illness but it's also important to remember that many in our community are survivors of breast cancer, and while a lot of us chose to get breast implants because we weren't happy with our natural breasts, many women are forced into that consideration because their natural breasts are being taken from them. Today, our guest is Erica Newbert Campbell. She's a breast cancer survivor, director of the Pinky Swear Foundation, helping children and their families through their cancer diagnosis and treatment, and she just published her memoir this week called the Mastectomy I Always Wanted. So today we're going to dive into. There's a lot behind that book title, by the way, a lot, and we're going to talk about that. Erica really opens up in our conversation about her journey, the decisions that she was faced with, including her decision to reconstruct with breast implants, and what that journey looked like for her and what it looks like today Wow Hi.

Erica Newbert Campbell: 1:31

Erica Hi Darna, how are you?

Darnah Mercieca: 1:34

I'm fantastic, I'm very excited to be speaking to you, and happy birthday week.

Erica Newbert Campbell: 1:42

Thank you. Thank you, it has certainly been a big week, and not just my birthday.

Darnah Mercieca: 1:47

I know the birthday and your book launched this week. That is so cool. Your book launched on your birthday, right? Yes, so basically there were two things that got birthed that day. Congratulations on your book launch. How do you feel? I?

Erica Newbert Campbell: 2:00

feel like someone who just gave birth to something. So I'm exhausted, I'm thrilled, I can't wait to see where this book goes. The intention is that it becomes something bigger than myself, and so I feel really excited about it.

Darnah Mercieca: 2:14

Oh, that's amazing. So the mastectomy I always wanted and I'm really excited to talk more with you about that title later. We'll definitely talk more about the purpose of your book later on, but as I was reading it, as I bought it on launch day and as I was reading it, it's like a super personal behind the curtains of your journey and, oh my gosh, it's personal like personal notes, photos of everything, um, and basically what you went through every step of the way. So it's just incredible. I just want to like commend you for your bravery for putting that out there in book form available globally. I mean, your boobs are now out there yeah, yeah, yeah.

Erica Newbert Campbell: 3:07

I mean, I've definitely had a few moments where I've been like is this, is this what I want to do? But you know, the intention is to make it normal, to normalize that conversation, and you know, and you know, I know we'll talk about normalize any choice that a woman makes, right, because the more that we can talk about these things that are awkward and are a little bit over, perhaps over the edge, the more we can then open up new dialogues and not make it so strange and so awkward, right.

Erica Newbert Campbell: 3:44

I mean I feel like even 20 years ago, just the words cancer or breast cancer was like whispered in you know, in quiet corners, and you know. I just think it's time to talk about these things and that's why I love that you're talking about these things and in terms of you know what is the value of you know of implants and explants and things like that, yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, know what is the value of you know of implants and explants and things like that.

Darnah Mercieca: 4:05

Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day too, like just by everyone feeling more comfortable to have the conversations. That's how people become more aware of their choices. That's how people become more informed, because now you're able, you feel comfortable going and having conversations with different people about their experiences. You feel more comfortable learning about the different terminologies and now you can actually go and have more informed conversations with your surgeons and all of those things to really inform your decisions. But yeah, we'll definitely dive into that a lot more and talk about your decisions. But I'd like to start kind of getting some of the backstory and I'd love to, if you feel comfortable which I'm sure you do, because you just wrote a whole book about it talk about your cancer and your experience and talk about you know when you found out you had breast cancer and what that diagnosis looked like for you.

Erica Newbert Campbell: 5:07

It all began actually probably now 25 years ago, when my mother was diagnosed with breast cancer and she had an early stage cancer that all her physicians were like this is easy to cure, you shouldn't worry. And ultimately she relapsed four times. All her physicians were like this is easy to cure, you shouldn't worry. And ultimately she relapsed four times and over four years. It was an incredibly wild roller coaster and it took her life, and so breast cancer was always part of my worry. It was always something I would think about in the back of my mind, and I started at a relatively early age. You know, my mom died when I was 29. And I immediately began to try and advocate for myself for mammograms and early screening and Raka gene testing, and all the time I was told I was too young, wow, and I really had to fight pretty hard to get that early screenings. And thank God I did, because, um, you know it was, I had dense breasts, I had what they call calcifications, which are like kind of warning signs that breast cancer could be in your future, and all those things were tracked over time. So I I always kind of joke that I had scansiety for years, which is the, which is the anxiety that comes before, during and after a scan right, because you have to wait. And I often got those callbacks right Like the phone call you never want, which is like, hey, we did your mammogram last week, we think we see something, can you come back for another screen? So, whether it was another ultrasound, another MRI, I had those for years. So my, my scansiety was pretty high.

Erica Newbert Campbell: 7:05

And then, um, the and of course you know, there was the one time where I got the call back that said we want you to come back for a biopsy. I was like, ooh, that's next level, right, like it had always been just come back for the ultrasound, just come back for a little bit more. And I was like, okay, okay, but to be honest, darn it, after even all of those years, I was like, nope, this is just scanxiety, it'll be fine. And that was the one time. So that's the call I eventually got was after that biopsy. I got the call where it started off Friday afternoon four o'clock, not a great time it was are you sitting down and are you alone? Was what the what the nurse, practitioner, practitioner said when I answered the phone. And then you know, you know that's when you pick up your pen and you can't even like think about anything because you, you know what's coming, but you're still waiting for those words, were you?

Erica Newbert Campbell: 8:03

That's how I got the news. I was yeah, yeah.

Darnah Mercieca: 8:09

Are you glad that you were alone in that moment?

Erica Newbert Campbell: 8:11

Great question. Yes, because I was able I mean, to be honest, you know I did quote, take notes and I just wrote scraps of words on a piece of paper. But as soon as I hung up, I was able to literally put my hands in my head and cry, and that privacy of that moment was probably something that I could at least like, get it out, get my thoughts together. And then my next phone call. I had to pick up the phone and call my husband and tell him which was in broken English, to be honest because you start to say the words and you just can't finish them.

Darnah Mercieca: 8:47

Yeah, wow, I mean I've only had the scansiety once. I love that word, that term and I can't even imagine hearing that next step of the biopsy. I mean I got to ultrasound and then got the clear, but yeah, that would be terrifying. So, wow, and how long was it between receiving that call and getting your diagnosis to when you had the surgery and getting your diagnosis to when you had the?

Erica Newbert Campbell: 9:24

surgery. You know it was probably quicker than most. I want to say it was probably a month. Oh, wow, yeah. But you know what comes with that is you know. So on Monday morning I started to get the phone calls right. That's when I had to meet with an oncologist, a breast surgeon, a plastic surgeon, a nurse practitioner, a care coordinator. I mean, those meetings alone, just setting them up, probably took a couple of weeks just to do yeah.

Erica Newbert Campbell: 9:59

And you know, I did sit in those meetings with surgeons and was presented with lots of options, right, options to do nothing, options to have a lumpectomy, options to have a double mastectomy, a single mastectomy. The amount of choices they give you and the amount of information comes at you, it's like drinking from a fire hose, right. And so the reason I say it felt quick was because I did at least have some. I had always suspected this was coming for me, so I did, had already done a fair amount of research. It doesn't diminish my fear, anxiety, just complete like bonkers feelings and emotions. But I was pretty confident that I wanted that mastectomy and I said I'm also really struggling with the waiting, because talk about skin anxiety, the fear and the weight. Oh yeah, I was like let's, once I've, once I've decided, let's do it and um even a month, felt like 10 months you can imagine, and was was your cancer?

Darnah Mercieca: 11:02

was it in one breast or in both?

Erica Newbert Campbell: 11:10

One breast, yeah, and so I did have. And then you do have to get all sorts of like really heavy testing in order to determine if it had spread, and so that's also part of that super anxiety, that's like anxiety squared, whereas I had to go for a contrast MRI and they wanted to see did it spread to other locations in your body, into your breasts, into your lymph nodes? And they never really know for sure until they do the surgery. But um, oh God.

Darnah Mercieca: 11:33

Yeah, all of a sudden, you become a science experiment. Yes, yeah, yes, wow. And so then, um, let's talk about your decision to move forward with a double mastectomy. What I think you mentioned that you were choosing between a mastectomy or a lumpectomy. What did that decision look like and how did you come to yours?

Erica Newbert Campbell: 11:56

Yeah, you know the options they present you and I'm going to tell them in the most simplistic form, which is the lumpectomy, which is just removing that, you know, sort of the cancerous cells and the air surrounding tissue, or the double mastectomy. Now, obviously, the double mastectomy is far more invasive, yeah, and the lumpectomy, you know, would be less challenging in terms of a surgery, but it also comes with a couple of things. Right, it comes with the potential for radiation or chemotherapy afterwards. It comes with potential for um, you know, estrogen or tamoxifen, and and. But ultimately, what it came down to for me was how I was going to think about it. What was the mental game that I was willing to play the rest of my life.

Darnah Mercieca: 12:45

Wow.

Erica Newbert Campbell: 12:46

Because if you have a lumpectomy, yeah, you know you definitely have a far easier recovery and you know far less. You know fear about losing your breasts and femininity and all of the things that. That's why, you know, people choose a lumpectomy. But I was like wait a minute, then I will be subjected to a lifetime of those more mammograms, mris, breasts, ultrasounds that scansiety would be present for me at an even higher level for the rest of my life.

Erica Newbert Campbell: 13:19

Yeah, and you might end up right back here again, which is what happened to my mom, yeah, and so I was like whole man, I am rewriting this story. And it did feel really redemptive to have that choice again. I mean, a lot of times women in these situations don't feel like they have a lot of choices and I was like, okay, well, I have choice and I'm going to take a different path. Right, choose the path, less, less taken. And so I definitely chose that double mastectomy, fully aware it was going to be more painful, more invasive, more challenging. And then, of course, came choices about reconstruction. Do you do it, do you not? And you know the choice? I don't know. Flow chart just continues to go on.

Darnah Mercieca: 14:10

Yes, actually, if you don't mind, if it's okay with you, I'd love to read a few sentences from your book. Of course I would love that I was reading through your book and this part really had an impact on me. It like I felt it. I mean, a lot of your book did, to be honest, but this part, I think, given the topic of the podcast, empowered Explant and talking about breast implants this had a real impact on me and I'm sure everyone listening will resonate. So you say in your book.

Darnah Mercieca: 14:44

I also questioned my decisions about the next step. My current pain was directly related to my choice to insert implants under my chest muscle. I started to like being slightly flat chested. I looked thinner from the immediate loss of a few pounds of flesh. With this new lightness, I wondered if I'd made the wrong decision to pursue implants and reconstruction. What I saw in the mirror started to look good enough. I love that.

Darnah Mercieca: 15:14

By the way, the subsequent surgery to replace the expanders with permanent implants loomed large. I knew breast reconstruction was the right path, but I grew weary of the uncertainty and doubt. I thought the initial surgery meant the end of the decisions, but I was wrong. More choices loomed, as you were just saying. Now I faced the size and shape of my new fake breasts, the type of implant and the volume of saline.

Darnah Mercieca: 15:43

Whenever I questioned the next step or the pace of my progress, my doctor asked me to trust him and I did. Wow, that really paints a picture beautifully written and and I think there's just there's so many points that stand out here to me that I'd love to talk more about. You know, I'd love to talk to you about what led you to the decision to reconstruct with breast implants and if you were given other options or made aware of the risks associated. Because here you said, whenever you question the next step or the pace of the risks associated, because here you said, whenever you question the next step or the pace of your progress, your doctor asked you to trust him and you did.

Darnah Mercieca: 16:32

And I think where so many of us resonate, whether we've been through cancer or not, but just with the process of breast implants, we trust our surgeons, right, you know they were going to them with a medical concern or with an aesthetic concern, and we trust them to really do the best thing by us medically and to give us all the information that we need. And I can imagine at that point, like you said, you'd had so many decisions. I can imagine there was a lot of decision fatigue. All this was happening in the span of a month, which I can't even believe, and it's such an emotional rollercoaster and I can imagine that with this decision, you probably would have just been like just trust him and just go with it and let's get this done. Yeah, yeah.

Erica Newbert Campbell: 17:31

I mean thank you, by the way, for reading that passage and I'm so glad that that landed for you and I now I, you, actually you reading it back to me. Put me back in that moment, cause I do remember thinking, geez, what have I done? When I made the choices to have the reconstructive surgery, I did have to make all of those choices at the very beginning, right, and at the time I was sitting in fear, anxiety, just like am I going to die? Is this over? What am I going to look like? Am I still a woman? What is my husband going to think? Like thousands of things are running through your head and the doctor is saying here are your choices. Do you want you're going to have reconstructive implants? Right? I'm like, uh, sure, sure, yeah, okay, you know. I mean like you're almost not in a place to even think about that because there's other bigger choices about like your life your life Right?

Erica Newbert Campbell: 18:28

I was going to say, like life or death, right, is cancer going to take me? I mean, I'd seen my mom die. I literally held her hand when she died and I didn't want that path. So that was all I was focused on. I wasn't as focused on like, what is this going to look like? Am I still going to feel like a woman? And of course that crossed my mind at the time. But you know, when I wrote that passage, it had been several, you know several weeks after my surgery and I was like, wait, wait, this is this is good enough. Why did I say that I wanted more?

Darnah Mercieca: 19:01

And there's also photos. There's photos inside your book and so looking at those, it's so interesting. Know, you don't know at that point. You know, when you're first diagnosed and you're making all these decisions, you have no idea what you're going to look like after your mastectomy, or you know no idea, but in your photos I'm like, oh, you actually looked great. Um, you look well proportioned, uh. So yeah, I could imagine you standing there going oh, wow, wow, okay.

Erica Newbert Campbell: 19:43

Yeah, yeah, and it's like I'll be honest by that point. Could I have made a reversal of that choice? Probably, I felt like the train had left the station and that trust piece gosh. You and I could do an entire podcast on trust and the amount of trust you have to put in essentially one human and one human that I haven't even really spent time with, I don't have a relationship with you know you think about you, know you date somebody for years before you get married. But I have to make a decision about a surgeon in about 20 minutes and then it's on to the next patient, right, and the amount of trust you have to pack into those short periods of time is really challenging. How?

Darnah Mercieca: 20:14

would you describe the emotions that you felt around losing your breasts?

Erica Newbert Campbell: 20:20

I mean it sounds so funny I just felt like I had this complicated relationship with my breasts and that I was a late bloomer and so when I was a teenager, like I really wanted breasts, like I was, that I was that like classic teenager that would like look at them in the mirror, like do you think they get bigger today? You know, I was like trying to like squeeze and like lean over and look and see, like I was such a late bloomer and you know it caused me some maybe I'm going to say anxiety, discomfort, you know, when all of my peers at that age were, you know, just, you know a lot more developed than me. So it was always something I like, desperately wanted. And of course, you know, yes, I just had to be patient. So in my 20s I did, I got a beautiful set of boobs, like they eventually grew and I looked great and you know I'd wear tight tops and you know, want to show my cleavage like any 20. Something would, um, you know, appropriately, not inappropriately.

Darnah Mercieca: 21:21

I don't know about. There's that porn star, Erica she took it a a little far.

Erica Newbert Campbell: 21:26

She took it a little too far and you know I wasn't there yet. I was conservative but proud, you know, and you know, and then, you know, then I got married, I had babies and, like, breastfeeding wasn't like the most easy or the most like natural experience for me. I did it, I, I was glad, I did it, um, but then those my boobs became like this source of tension for me, because then they were became this thing that caused me fear. Yeah, right, because that's when I was in the phase of all these like hey, I think we see something that was, I mean, that went on for 10 years. I would have these scary mammograms.

Erica Newbert Campbell: 22:09

So you know, again, it's like I really wanted the breasts. Then I got them and I was happy to have them. Then they were this like source of life for my children, and then they became this source of anxiety, fear and dread, and so it was like this roller coaster relationship with my boobs. And so, yeah, when it was time to decide to get rid of them I lack of a better word Um, it was, it was maybe bittersweet, yeah, um, because I, I was and I'll put this in quotes and I don't mean to suspect I was glad to get rid of the fear piece of my body.

Darnah Mercieca: 22:45

Yeah.

Erica Newbert Campbell: 22:47

Um, but I also was. You know, I still wanted to look good. You know there's still that, not that I want to say ego, but you know, just, the peer pressure for women is really high. And I remember and I have some really beautiful memories with my mom.

Erica Newbert Campbell: 23:04

So, you know, during her, her journey and her relapse, she event, you know, she started off with a lumpectomy. After she relapsed, she had a single mastectomy and so she had one natural boob and then she chose not to have reconstructive surgery on her remaining boob. So you know, we would go to breast cancer stores and we'd be buying the you know sort of just things to stuff her bra. She would still wear a natural bra and we had to go shopping for really special bathing suits and just seeing her I mean she literally had one of each, one real and one absent. In some ways, like that was a struggle for me, because she always felt half and half, yeah, and so that's why I was like let's just take both of them and it was okay. And I talked to my husband about it too and he was like I didn't marry you for your boobs. You know, like you're a lot more than that. But you know those questions and those conversations had to happen still.

Darnah Mercieca: 24:12

Yeah, and did you have concern around that and how it would affect your relationship and your intimacy?

Erica Newbert Campbell: 24:21

A hundred percent.

Darnah Mercieca: 24:22

Yeah.

Erica Newbert Campbell: 24:22

A hundred percent. You know, and you know I won't get private here, but you know that's like we had a conversation about it. You know we were intimate the night before I had my surgery Cause I was like, well, this is the time for you to do that. You know, like it's now or never, and I would say now today, fast forward. You know, I did have that reconstructive surgery and mine look pretty real. I mean, you can see them in the book and um, so my husband is totally happy with them.

Darnah Mercieca: 24:56

but it's not about him.

Erica Newbert Campbell: 24:57

You know what I mean. I mean not disrespectfully to him, it's about me.

Darnah Mercieca: 25:01

Well, and even even the piece that feels a little about him is still about you, because it's about how you feel in those moments with him. Yeah, yeah, so, yeah, I, I understand that and, um, the tattooing you got looks beautiful oh, that was like it's.

Erica Newbert Campbell: 25:20

That's the secret nobody tells you. I mean, once you get in this world. When I learned there was tattoo artists in this world where their full-time job, fully booked, is nipple tattoos, I was like what it's? Like a subculture almost. And yeah, I mean for those of you who I'm not going to show them on this podcast, but if you get the book, you'll see the nipple tattoos. The 3d looks 3d, even though it's completely flat.

Darnah Mercieca: 25:54

Yeah, I mean just a tattoo. In some cases you might even trade your nipples for a better set of nipples. I mean that's a hundred percent. They're very impressive.

Erica Newbert Campbell: 26:06

They look very, very, very real. Yeah, that's awesome, that's awesome, yeah. And I will say, like that's the piece where. And then you know this happens like if I go to a gym and you know there's a women's locker room or you, you know you're at a swimming pool, like I don't worry. When I didn't have nipples, I was afraid that you get sort of like no one's staring at you, right, but you get the double take of like wait, what, what? I didn't that I no longer worried about anymore.

Darnah Mercieca: 26:34

Amazing, yeah, and. And so you went through the expanders, you went through the implant process, you have breast implants. Now what? What was the time timeframe on that journey?

Erica Newbert Campbell: 26:50

Yeah, that's where I felt like, ooh, this is going real fast. I mean, I wanna say two weeks or maybe three weeks after my surgery and again, if you see the photos, like I looked like a Frankenstein and they were like, yep, you're ready to start expanding. It's like what I'm still like, it's fresh, it's still so fresh and you know, literally like they're in with these um expanders, it's kind of like a deflated balloon underneath your chest and they use a magnet to find where the like sort of the opening of the balloon is and that's where they mark me, like you know, mark me literally with a Sharpie, and then that's when I come in with a needle and then they'll inject saline into that balloon. Yeah, I did. I felt like I don't know, like something out of Star Wars, right, you know, it's just like there's metal underneath my skin and there's a magnet now attached to my chest and a marker um, and it was.

Erica Newbert Campbell: 27:50

It was like. It was like living my teenage years again, because it was an immediate reaction. You know, you could see, um, my chest get bigger. Yeah, just like, right then, and it was it was a little bit painful.

Darnah Mercieca: 28:03

Yeah, oh, I can imagine yeah, but that took.

Erica Newbert Campbell: 28:06

So then they would, they would put a little bit in and then let my skin and you know it was painful. It was like, have you ever had braces on your teeth? Oh yeah, like you know, when they get them tightened it's like it's like sore for three days. That's kind of what it felt like, um, and so they, I would wait a week, go back again and and to your point about choices, like I was like well, this looks good enough, I don't need to be bigger. But you know, again my surgeon is like I think you're going to want to be at least your same size. And I was like he's like you can go bigger.

Darnah Mercieca: 28:38

Oh, no, no, that is always the thing that surgeons say. I don't even understand it. I'm like because then you start questioning. I mean you may not have, but in a lot of cases you start questioning like, should I be bigger? And I mean it definitely happened to me. I went in wanting something. I wanted a C and I came out with a double D. Like I didn't want a double D, I can't even. I'm too small to carry a double D safely Well on earth. I didn't ask for all those postural issues, so no, it's actually very interesting. May I ask what size you were naturally versus what size you came out with? Yeah, I would say borderline BC.

Erica Newbert Campbell: 29:24

So I mean I would say, like appropriately for my frame, right. But the surgeon did say do you want to go full C? Right, and I was like you know it sounds, and we joked about it and I was like, well, again, that's what I wanted as a teenager, right, that's what I wanted in my twenties, yeah. But then to your point, I was like, oh, wait a minute, then that might hurt my back muscles or you know, that's not the thing we talked about. He was just like, well, whatever you choose. And then I had to really like, think about it, about exercise, right, like just having bigger breasts, like jogging, you know, would be just more ups and downs.

Darnah Mercieca: 30:04

So you actually thought about those things. Oh yeah, for sure, gosh, I wish I did. Maybe it was because I was 23 and just not. I was just like the big boobs, please. Um, I was not thinking about any of those things, but I'm uh, I'm glad you did so, that at least, even though you were going down the path of getting implants, you were making an informed decision about the size. That's good.

Erica Newbert Campbell: 30:29

Yeah, but I mean it was tempting because in my teens and twenties, yeah, I would have gone like bring on the C, bring on the D. But you know I was diagnosed at 45, right, where I had a little bit more like I've run into, I've run into sports bra, where you know, not always comfortable.

Darnah Mercieca: 30:47

And you'd already been through pregnancy, knowing what those big, massive, heavy boots felt like. So you had a little perspective.

Erica Newbert Campbell: 30:56

I had perspective, so you get to give yourself great starter, because in my teens and twenties I would have gone double D, yeah, I think a lot of us do just go big or go home, sure, why not?

Darnah Mercieca: 31:15

a lot of us do just go big or go home, sure, why not? Exactly, wow, such a journey.

Erica Newbert Campbell: 31:17

And so how long has it been now from the time where you could say that you were healed, you were, you had your nipples tattooed, like you were kind of there, to now, oh, I want to say it's probably been five years, okay, yeah, I mean it's been probably six and a half since my original diagnosis and, uh, you know I, so I can joke about it now, right, I can talk about it with a lot of hope and inspiration. And that's my intention. Is that to give other women that future, them right, the future look of like that is possible, like now I'm really happy, right, I'm really. I don't have scansiety, yeah, I don't worry about it. I don't have real breasts so I can't get breast cancer, and that's the mental relief of that has transformed my life, I would say.

Darnah Mercieca: 32:10

Is that where the title of your book comes from? Yeah, the Mastectomy I Always Wanted. Is that?

Erica Newbert Campbell: 32:16

Yeah, yeah, I mean it's a little bit about. I always wanted to get rid of the fear, I always wanted to rewrite the story of my mom's journey and I always wanted, oh gosh, peace of mind. Peace of mind, you know, and the power to choose my own journey, and I think that's what I love about. What you talk about, too, is like we all get to make our own choices. And you know, it's funny, somebody, somebody once challenged me in this game of like what do you want, right? And they said what do you want? You give an answer, and it's usually pretty superficial. You know, I want to win the lottery. You know what do you want? And they keep asking it to you over and over again until you get to the heart of what you really want. And so, by like the 50th time, this person asked me quite intensely what do you want?

Erica Newbert Campbell: 33:11

My answer was freedom.

Darnah Mercieca: 33:14

Yeah, when were you playing this game? This was before your surgery.

Erica Newbert Campbell: 33:18

Yeah, this was actually in the middle of writing my book and this is before the title of this book. To be totally honest, it's even kind of interesting. I put this in the acknowledgement sections of the book is where I actually do a special shout out to Angelina Jolie, and I don't know if people know her story because it's quite old now. But I want to say now, I think it's 10 to 15 years ago. I want to say now, I think it's 10 to 15 years ago, she wrote an op-ed in the New York Times and it was about how she chose her own voluntary mastectomy. Because she was diagnosed as BRCA positive, so she didn't have cancer, she didn't have any disease, but she had the BRCA gene and so made a really bold choice to have a double mastectomy with reconstructive surgery, and it was.

Erica Newbert Campbell: 34:05

This was finally like for coming out, and at the time again this is like 15 years ago it was really revolutionary and it was not something that was talked about. Now I think celebrities are like, oh my gosh, I was diagnosed with cancer, but back then that wasn't, it wasn't a public facing activity, and so this was really groundbreaking and in fact there's research out there that calls it the Angelina Jolie effect. Oh wow, in that afterwards many people, especially BRCA positive women, chose to have preventative mastectomies and some chose not to have reconstruction. Some chose to have reconstruction. It's the first time I'd ever heard of it.

Darnah Mercieca: 34:46

That's so empowering. She really empowered women to take control of their futures and I love that. And, by the way, angie, if you're listening, you got to get a copy of this book because your name is in it.

Erica Newbert Campbell: 35:02

And, like Angelina, if you're listening, seriously call me, because you saved my life.

Darnah Mercieca: 35:08

Hold up, hold up your book. I know you got it there. Ah, I love your book cover so much. Tell me about the thumbprints or the fingerprints on your book, I know they make an adorable heart. But what? Inspired them.

Erica Newbert Campbell: 35:26

Yeah, oh gosh, I worked with the best cover designer and that was her idea and she had read the book and so her vision on the two thumbprints was really several layered. It was, you know, there's like genetics right, your thumbprint is your genetics. And there's again like the BRCA positive for some folks Also there's. You know, it takes two thumbprints and that was representative of myself and my mom. Are two thumbprints, or myself and another woman, right, because we're all in this together. Anybody listening, I guarantee, has their own journey, but like there's somebody that connects with you, right, like this Um, and it doesn't need to be me, just I guarantee it's somebody, and so, just that togetherness of um, you are not alone. Uh, we each have our own identity and so we're different, yet we are connected. It's really the inspiration behind that.

Darnah Mercieca: 36:21

That's deep. I love your cover designer.

Erica Newbert Campbell: 36:23

Yeah, she's amazing. She's amazing, emily Mahan. Yeah.

Darnah Mercieca: 36:36

Great, I love that. That's gorgeous. Yeah, your book is beautiful, and so I want to talk a little bit more about your book. What made you decide to write your book? What made you say, okay, I'm going to write a book, I'm going to pour my whole journey into this, I'm going to put it all out into the world?

Erica Newbert Campbell: 36:51

I write a little bit about this in my book and it's this kind of funny story. That was not my intention from the start. I'll say that. But when I was diagnosed, I was working full time as a leader of a team and I had to announce to my team that I was diagnosed. I was working full-time as a leader of a team and I had to announce to my team that I was diagnosed and I was going to take a few weeks off. Afterwards there was a woman who pulled me aside and she was new to the office, new to the team. I didn't really know her very well, worked for me and she's like, hey, again, woman to woman, I've been diagnosed with the same thing. I had the same surgery five years ago.

Erica Newbert Campbell: 37:26

Do you want to see what my breasts look like today? And I'm like, oh my God, that is so unprofessional, so awkward, and I don't even know you. And, yes, I totally want to see this. You know I was like, yes, hr, so we like go off the beaten path in the office. You know the bathroom that like nobody ever uses. And then we locked the door. She takes off her shirt and her breasts look amazing, like they look so real. Her scars are so faint you can barely see them. I'm like literally like up close, like are you sure? Like she's like, do you see the little line? Like I could barely see him. She also had nipples removed. She had the 3d nipple tattoo and I was like those look real and I literally I'm embarrassed to say I was like, can I touch them? She's like, yeah, sure, and like it sure was not a actual nipple, but it looked like it and it gave me so much hope in that moment.

Erica Newbert Campbell: 38:30

Right that's when I was in that waiting period, that fear like your mind goes into really dark places and I was like, oh my God, I feel so much better. But I also in that moment was like like, oh my God, I feel so much better. But I also in that moment was like this is probably pretty rare. Like how often does like another woman willingly do this on the spot, incredibly vulnerable. I barely knew her and I was like I feel like I got to pay this forward.

Erica Newbert Campbell: 38:55

And again, not in that moment was I like I'm going to write a book, but I was like I let me just take pictures in case I want to help another woman in the future and, sure enough, a couple of months, a couple of years, people knew about my surgery and then they would pass my name on to other women and so I'd get these calls, texts like hey, I'm a friend of Darna's, I'm having the same surgery, can you give me some advice? And I'm texting these photos to other random strangers and and calling them and giving them advice. And that's when I was like I think I'm onto something here because people found it really helpful. Yeah, they were like oh, my God, thank you so much.

Erica Newbert Campbell: 39:35

And so that really was the inspiration. I was like okay, so I've been able to help 10 women, you know, over the course of a couple of years. What if I turn this into a book and what if I could get this out to thousands of women? Because, again, it wasn't a resource my surgeon. Getting back to the trust conversation, I would say what am I supposed to look like? What's normal? And you tell me to trust you, but like, do you have any photos? He's like no, most women don't want to share. I was like okay, well, I'd be willing to, and I even said that to him. I was like I've been taking photos the whole time, and so that really was the reason I decided to do it.

Darnah Mercieca: 40:16

Yeah, and I mean there really is no better reason because, at the end of the day, you know, the power of community is huge, the power of just, um, speaking to someone, even who's been through it, who can give you that hope, and, uh, I mean that's that was the driving factor behind empowered explant.

Darnah Mercieca: 40:36

And I think that, you know, just to encourage anyone who's listening I know that sometimes it can be really scary to share your story, and not everybody it's not for everybody to go public with their story or their photos or anything like that but even if you can impact one person, that person who might've just had their diagnosis, or that person who's facing a really difficult decision, and you can share your journey, it can make a huge difference. And that is why joining community, getting connected with somebody reading your book, reading through it, I could just imagine that it would help so many women just feel less alone and less crazy. And to normalize the emotions because you're very real and raw about all the the positives but also the scary moments that you faced and to shine a light on those and and show like that is normal.

Erica Newbert Campbell: 41:42

That's a part of this and you can feel that and go through that and still come out the other side okay, a hundred percent, and I have shared the book. It's now out. But I did give advanced copies to many women facing that initial moments, initial decisions, fears, and they've been like, oh my gosh, I felt, seen and heard, yeah, and I didn't feel crazy to your point or I didn't feel like those emotions. I was uncomfortable talking to my surgeon about them or, as I'm comfortable, talking to my partner about them, like that for me, like you know, I I felt alone, yeah and uh. So I again, it's all about paying it forward yeah, that's incredible.

Darnah Mercieca: 42:26

I'm so excited about your book and I've got a link to it in the description in the show notes, so definitely be sure to check it out, especially if you know somebody who is going through this or you know, share it with them. If you're going through this, grab a copy for yourself, as a gift to yourself, and even if you are a support person for somebody who is going through it, I think it can really paint a picture of you know, help you find that compassion and empathy for what someone may be feeling or going through and help you support them. So just such an incredible book and, once again, you are so brave, so thank you for putting it out there and so, okay, I know that I'm curious and I'm sure that a lot of people listening are curious.

Darnah Mercieca: 43:18

We have women in our community who have had reconstructive surgery, who have breast implants, who are facing the decision to remove their breast implants due to health concerns. They're terrified, rightfully so. We have women in our community who have already, you know they've had the mastectomy, they had reconstruction, but then they've already removed their breast implants. I mean, we've got women who have just gone through it and are in all you know stages of this journey. Super curious, if you feel comfortable talking about it, how you feel about your breast implants now, years later, and you're obviously aware of breast implant illness now and the risks, the possible risks of breast implants especially, especially in women who have had, you know, immune conditions like cancer. So how do you feel with them now and is there anything that you're doing in particular to monitor the health of your actual breast implants?

Erica Newbert Campbell: 44:32

Yes, all the things, and I'm so glad you asked that. And again, I think any woman who has implants I'd be interested if this resonates with you. They feel like a necklace. I can't take off A heavy necklace. You can't take off A heavy necklace. You can't take off In the beginning, like it really felt, like you know, at the end of the day you kind of like you know you had a tight bra on and just like can't wait to like release it, or you have a heavy necklace you can't take it off, Like I didn't have that option and that really like nodded me for a while because it did feel foreign.

Erica Newbert Campbell: 45:07

And you know, certainly when I had the expanders in, that felt really foreign. I mean, it was like literally like felt like R2D2, right, I felt like a droid, yeah, and so, and I didn't have a lot of sensation in my breasts either, right, like I literally would like bump into things because I didn't have, like the nerve endings. I will say now, five years later, it still doesn't feel like they are naturally a part of my body, but I, those, some of those, well, some of the sensation has come back and you know, I guess I've gotten used to that feeling of of again the necklace that you can't take off. But yeah, I mean I'm still under scrutiny. Up until actually six months ago I still met with an oncologist every six months to check. There is a slight chance there's still breast, you know, microscopic breast tissue, to make sure that you know, because I'm not getting mammograms right. So they still want to keep me under scrutiny for any kind of relapse or recurrence. But I still go to my breast surgeon and he needs to make sure that there's not breast illness or breast implant that has shifted or moved. And you know, know, those are all risks.

Erica Newbert Campbell: 46:24

I didn't know in the beginning. And as I talked to more women, I have talked to women who've had breast implants that have flipped. You know, just, you know, been on a roller coaster and literally the implant flipped. They didn't have that in the instruction manual. So yeah, yeah, it is interesting. I also know a fair amount of women who have had their implants taken out and if you don't follow her, the one I love and adore is Christine Handy, who is now she's like a Victoria's Secret model who had her implants taken out after a cancer diagnosis because she was having so much illness and now she's a flat chested model and I love that because she really makes a point of saying you could be flat chested and still be really beautiful and still be a model. But I also know women that just took them out because they didn't want to deal with the fear of an illness from it, and I respect all of those choices.

Darnah Mercieca: 47:26

Standing where you are now looking to the future, if you were faced with that decision and this may be way too soon and you might be like haven't faced this yet too many decisions. I still have decision fatigue from six years ago but if you were, you know, faced with health concerns, either directly due to your breast implants, or you know you were just faced with health concerns around that Would you consider removing them? Is that something that you've thought about? Yeah, oh, yeah.

Erica Newbert Campbell: 48:00

If I had a health concern, 100%, I'd get them gone yesterday, right? I mean because it is an accessory, right, it's a nice to have, it's not a must have, right? And so if it was causing me any issues, oh, 100% implant, and you know it is. I've had these implants in now five years and at the 10-year mark I will have to get them replaced. Right there, it's like an old pair of shoes, you know, they just get worn out. I'm not sure where I'm gonna be there, right, and I don't need to decide right now. But you know, those kinds of surgeries not super fun, it's more than just your breasts, like there was a lot of all that sounds funny. But you had to have liposuction which you're like that sounds great. No, it's not that kind of liposuction, it just is really painful. I'm not sure where I'll be because, like you read it in the passages of my book when I was smaller, chested, flat chested.

Darnah Mercieca: 48:59

I looked good enough too. It shines through how important your health is to you and how important your life is to you, and really there's nothing more important than that. It's really hard to disassociate disassociate our breasts with our femininity and with our identity Um, yeah, and and. So it's a super difficult choice. What advice, looking back, would you give to somebody who was facing this decision of getting a double mastectomy and making a choice for themselves like this like this.

Erica Newbert Campbell: 49:42

Actually, in some ways it's a complicated question, in some ways it's not. I think if there's a breast cancer diagnosis, I'm 100% going to recommend a double mastectomy, and that one may be controversial, right, but to your point, I think your life is far more important than your looks and the fear associated, the mental game, but also the real chance of a relapse or the real chance of it spreading. It's not worth it just to remain to look like again. Magazines tell us to. So that one I feel pretty confident in the question about would I or would I recommend implants I could go 50-50 on that, right, I think my advice would be to ask more questions.

Erica Newbert Campbell: 50:26

You know, I was kind of feeling rushed because I was like get this out of me. I've been dealing with this for 15 years, like I just want it out, I just want it gone. And yeah, sure, if you tell me to trust you on the breasts, great. But I think maybe I would have slowed down and asked a few more questions. Maybe I would have talked to people like you or others in your community Like what's it like? At the time I didn't know anybody who didn't choose reconstructive surgery and my surgeon at the time was like well, everybody chooses it. So I was like well, everybody must. Okay, you know I think I would have asked more questions and done more research. I wasn't in that mindset then, and you know I get to give myself grace for that, so. But I think my advice above all is to trust yourself and trust whatever choice you make is the right one for you. It's not for your husband or partner, it's not for your kids, it's not for what society tells you to.

Darnah Mercieca: 51:22

It is for you, and I actually would also say there's always choice, you can change right as long as you got your life, as long as you prioritize your life number one. Number one prioritize your life and your health. Number two get informed, yes, and take a few breaths and get informed right. And then number three trust yourself and know that if you make a decision and it is wrong, there's always a way to course correct.

Erica Newbert Campbell: 51:57

Yeah, yeah. I think a lot of times in life we put our pressure on ourselves for the right choice forever, and I think it's always nuanced and you can always make a course correction.

Darnah Mercieca: 52:10

Ah, I love it. Oh, this has been so amazing, Erica. Is there anything else that you'd like to share or talk about?

Erica Newbert Campbell: 52:20

I mean, I come back to this phrase. I come back to three favorite phrases, right. One is never give up. It's sort of in the in the. What we just talked about is like it's never over, right, there's like you got to prioritize your life. That's the number one. That's actually the only thing that's over. Everything else is changeable. Everything else is you can, you know, choose differently? Um, so, never give up is my number one. My number two is you are not alone, you know, and that I mean I still to this day.

Erica Newbert Campbell: 52:49

There are moments I'm like, oh, I feel so, like no one else understands and that's probably not true. So you are not alone. And then another one. My third one is trust the process, and I almost hate that phrase too. I'm pretty sure people said it to me. I rolled my eyes and then you look back, you're like, oh God, that is right and I love your journey, darna, and like you know the process. It was the right one for you. It wasn't the straight path and it didn't need to be. Well, maybe you could have wanted it to be, but it makes you a more robust, vulnerable, authentic human.

Darnah Mercieca: 53:24

It gives me more to offer the world too. You know, I look at it like that and I see my give backs and and you know um the resilience and and the the stories I'm able to share, which then just go on to help others and, like you said, trust the process, trust the journey, and you're going to end up ultimately, if you're open to it, I think, and if you are willing to kind of take on that journey, like you said, and never give up, you will end up right where you're supposed to be looking back going ah, okay, it all makes sense. Now let's talk about where everyone can connect with you. So, by the way, your website is beautiful. I love it. It's gorgeous.

Erica Newbert Campbell: 54:10

My website is ericaneubertcampbellcom. There's a really, really funny true story, which is there are other famous Erica Campbell's. There is Erica Campbell, the Christian gospel singer, and Erica Campbell, the former porn star.

Darnah Mercieca: 54:29

Oh well, that's yeah.

Erica Newbert Campbell: 54:33

And I fall somewhere in between.

Darnah Mercieca: 54:38

Oh my goodness, that's really funny. And yeah, I, including the middle name definitely cuts back the confusion.

Erica Newbert Campbell: 54:46

Yes, If you are checking me out and a work computer, do not go to ericacampbellcom. I will redirect you to penthouse, maybe incognito, if you're really curious if you're really curious, test it and let me know, cause the last time I tested still redirected.

Darnah Mercieca: 55:02

Really curious, test it and let me know Cause the last time I tested still redirected, oh my goodness. And uh, we can also find you on Instagram.

Erica Newbert Campbell: 55:09

Yeah.

Darnah Mercieca: 55:17

Yes, Instagram, Facebook and LinkedIn. Okay, Instagram is Erica dot N dot Campbell and I have put all the links in the show notes in the description below so that everyone can connect with you and also grab a copy of your book that launched this week the Mastectomy I Always Wanted.

Erica Newbert Campbell: 55:34

I would love to hear from people. That's actually my favorite part is hearing from women. So please, please, connect, reach out. There's a connect with me page on my website or, like you said, on Instagram or any other social.

Darnah Mercieca: 55:48

Amazing. Thank you. This has been such an incredible conversation. I swear I was fighting back tears so many times. There were moments where I'm just like my eyes had welled up with tears because just your journey is incredible, your story is incredible and especially you know that connection back to your mom's story as well and just I could just imagine her being so proud of you. And yeah, that's the part. Oh, it got me again.

Erica Newbert Campbell: 56:22

Yeah, I know, I miss my mom every day.

Darnah Mercieca: 56:25

Yeah, you're doing, you're doing amazing things, so yeah, that really, um, thank you for saying that.

Erica Newbert Campbell: 56:31

that just about uh, all I want to do is make my mom proud, so I really appreciate that you are.

Darnah Mercieca: 56:38

there is no doubt about that.

Erica Newbert Campbell: 56:41

And I really want to have a conversation with Angelina Jolie, so call me in. Oh my gosh, I do. I want to hug her and be like thanks for saving my life.

Darnah Mercieca: 56:52

Yeah, there's some gratitude to be expressed here. Absolutely. Thanks for listening. Breasty, I'm going to keep this short. If you loved this episode, if you know somebody that this could really help, if you know somebody who needs to pick up a copy of Erica's book, if you feel like sharing this would make an impact in someone's life, please grab the link to this podcast episode. Or, if you're watching it on YouTube, grab the link and send it to somebody. Send it to somebody, share it on social media, share it in a Facebook group. Just help somebody out today who may need to hear this. I think, just like Erica said, pay it forward. All right, breasty, I'll see you back here next week.